Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) dealership claims injector pump timing failure but have good lift pump pressure

[DLineberrys]

I have an 02 2500 Diesel 5. 9 24 valve, manual transmission, 2nd gen body style truck with 66k. My symptoms have been: I crank it up in the morning and get white smoke with poor acceleration for about a mile. Then it clears up and the engine runs normal the rest of the day. During poor acceleration I can push the petal to the floor - there is no difference, the truck slowly accelerates. This does not happen every time I crank. I was given advice to lubricate the waste gate since my lift pump pressure gauge was not indicating any pressure failure. I did do this and it did seem to clear up my problem initially. After about a month, the problem kept reoccurring. I even put nut buster on it to no avail. In the process, I washed the engine compartment and after cranking up, I had terrible rumbling from the engine which vibrated the entire truck. I was blowing a massive amount of white smoke out the exhaust. I finally took the waste gate assembly apart and checked it - it was opening without problems. I put it all back together, I drove it and had no incidents that night. The next day I had the rumbling again and major smoke. I decided that I had to break down and take it to Dodge. I made an appointment to go the Dodge today. Ironically it cranked fine and drove great all the way to the dealership. They put it on the computer, and they claim that it is indicating a code which is injector pump timing failure... . and so they say my lift pump is not putting out enough flow. They say it needs to be replaced inside the fuel tank and the injector pump must be replaced too. I told them that I have good lift pump pressure . They claimed up and down that despite having a fuel pressure gauge, that meant nothing - it was all about the flow. How can you have flow without pressure? I have never had low lift pump pressure. I hang out at around 12 when I drive, 13 while idling, about 11 on acceleration. My fuel mileage remains the same as it has always been. I don't trust what they are telling me. They want me to fork over $4000. 00 to do the repairs they indicate. I asked them if it could possibly be the breather, but they blew me off. Some of my friends who have diesels are mentioning it might be the turbo. Unfortunately there is no other Dodge dealer in this town to go and get a second opinion. I don't have a code indicator on my truck, so there is no way for me to check if indeed they are telling me a correct code. The fact that a salesman told me that they are getting rid of their o8's at invoice minus rebates which amounted to about 12,000$ off - so most who were getting major repairs were just opting to trade in - and thay anyone who got their old Dodges repaired were making a bad financial decision - does not instill confidence in me that they don't just want to pump up maintenance costs to cover slow sales and/or force a trade in on major repairs. Can anyone help me? I am pretty much stranded here in Montrose, CO until I get a handle on this and get whatever is wrong fixed.

 

[strehl]

Do you have a autozone or some other auto parts store near you that will check for codes? It does sound like you are getting some of the symptoms of a bad injection pump but the dealer that you went to (imo) is treating you like your ignorant. I am one of those people that have had nothing but bad luck with dodge dealers so I do everything I can to not go to them. If your fuel pressure guage is accurate and right off the vp44 you cant have pressure without a restriction of flow and the only restriction would be the vp so common sense would say you have enough flow at the inlet of the vp.

 

[Huff N Puff]

That is not true:

Do you have a autozone or some other auto parts store near you that will check for codes? It does sound like you are getting some of the symptoms of a bad injection pump but the dealer that you went to (imo) is treating you like your ignorant. I am one of those people that have had nothing but bad luck with dodge dealers so I do everything I can to not go to them. If your fuel pressure guage is accurate and right off the vp44 you cant have pressure without a restriction of flow and the only restriction would be the vp so common sense would say you have enough flow at the inlet of the vp.

A leaky suction line,or a restricted fuel line,or a faulty fuel pump can froth the fuel with air and the pressure would look normal. A complete check always includes both a volume check and a pressure check.

 

[PVanderlugt]

you can do the code checking with the key trick, cycle the ignition key 3 times on/off and look in odometer window. The 02 vp's seem to have a tendicy to fail right around the 60000 milemark, nobody seems to know why, but there have been several discussions about this. $4000 seems whay high, you can have a vp from MFI for $1050, and if needed an Airdog or Fass for $500, and that would be the last of your fuel problems. Any person with some mechanical talent can change a vp, just be carefull. maybe you can find a mechanic or some type of general car repair place to help you out. $4000 for a vp and an intank pump(which will still only give you 5-8 psi with the same fuel lines, but yet somehow is supposed to flow more, can someone explain THAT one to me) seems ridiculously high when all the parts can be had for $1500 with a much better fuelpump and filtration. maybee 4-6 hours for a mechanic for a first vp change, airdog install maybee another 6 hours, 12 -15 hours of labour shouldn't cost $2500

pete,

 

[fox]

A lot of VP's fail with fuel pressure! Not many survive without pressure though.

 

[BoeingDiesel]

I agree with Huff... it's a process of elimination. Go to this link and read Chips' info on IP diagnostics. Good luck and let us know what's happening.



VP44 DIAGNOSTIC HELP

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

DLineberrys,

First off, Welcome to TDR!!!

If you haven't already please do the "key on-off" 3 times, leaving it on the 3rd time. Codes may show up in the odometer window, write them down and post here what they are. Autozone is even better because sometimes codes will not show up in the odo window but will on a scanner, and the scanner can erase the codes which will be good.

From your description I doubt you have an air leak in the fuel system, typically an air leak will cause symptoms consistently. Is your fuel pressure measured before or after the filter? Where is it tapped into?

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES ALLOW ANYONE TO EVER PUT AN IN TANK PUMP ON YOUR TRUCK!!!!!! You will only regret it later as they are worthless from day one. If the only way a repair shop will install an injection pump with warranty is to also install the in tank pump, RUN!!! If your fuel pressure gauge reads post filter and you have those pressures you mentioned above you are good to go.

Lastly, it does sound as if the timing solenoid in the VP44 injection pump is going bad, hence the "sometimes it runs good, sometimes it doesn't" symptoms. I will agree with Dodge on that. If the timing code shows up it is time for a reman VP44, but not from Dodge. There are several vendors here on TDR that build a good pump for way less money, I recommend and use Scheid.

OK, one more lastly! The wastegate has nothing to do with your problem.

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[DLineberrys]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies! I was up so late last night with researching this - I am just getting online now. I went to the truck and followed your instructions. I got:
P PCU
1693
P DONE
216
P DONE
The fuel lift pump gauge is between the lift pump and the fuel filter.

 

[strehl]

The fuel lift pump gauge is between the lift pump and the fuel filter.

You should move the sensor to between the filter and the injection pump that way the gauge shows you the pressure that the vp is seeing because right now you could have a plugged fuel filter and not know it until its too late.

 

[DLineberrys]

Yes I saw that on the Blue Chip diagnostic site recommended by BoeingDiesel. Looks like I am going to have to go to an autoparts store to get a scan on DTC code and run through all the diagnostic steps. I can't thank you all enough. This membership is more than worth its weight in gold.

 

[NoSeeUm]

The 02's seem prone to injection pump failures around the 40-60k mark for some reason. My guess is that your pump has been getting worse for some time and just recently got bad enough to be really noticeable.



Jim

 

[DLineberrys]

research raised the following questions:

A review of VP44 DIAGNOSTIC HELP , a trip to Autozone and Walmart raise the following questions I would like to get some opinions on before I undertake exhaustive diagnostic tests and repair in a campground



I need to know the following before I undergo a lift pump diagnosis of the pressure between the fuel filter and the injector pump:

What is the proper way to fit the fuel pressure gauge? To the pressure fitting on the fuel fitting which inserts into the high pressure pump OR to the metal fuel lines between the filter and the high pressure pump?



The code readout from the Autozone scanner read as follows:

1. 216: injector timing control circuit malfunction

2. 216 pending: injection timing control circuit malfunction



Their computer's diagnosis was replacement of the FUEL INJECTION MANAGEMENT SYSTEM. We were told by the technician that this was the computer brain on the injector pump. This was an indication that the injectors are not getting the fuel at the right time. He said that he did not think that the injector pump itself was failing since when this happens other codes would be coming up for massive malfunction. The technician said it is possible to get a calibrated computer component to reinstall on the injector pump BUT that this can only be ordered from Dodge.



According to VP44 DIAGNOSTIC HELP under DEAD PETAL "This symptom is usually caused by either a faulty APPS [no codes so not the culprit] or a faulty computer on the top of the VP44... . intermittent 'Dead Pedal' and no codes, YOU NEED AN INJECTION PUMP!"HARD START HOT OR COLD "If the truck... ... shows white smoke on start up, your problem is the computer on the top of the injection pump. This component cannot be replaced in the field as it has to be programmed and calibrated to the mechanical part of the VP44. You have to buy a replacement VP44 injection pump to correct this problem". ROUGH IDLE OR MISS AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS LIGHT THROTTLE " This is always the computer on the top of the injection pump, as long as there is APPROPRIATE LIFT PUMP PRESSUREand no codes pertaining to [etc. ,etc. ,]... ... you know what a bad computer means: REPLACE THE VP44!



So which is it? Can the computer be replaced or does the entire injector pump have to be replaced because the computer cannot be replaced once it leaves the factory?



If I have to replace the whole unit, does anyone know if any special tools are required? Should I purchase the Dodge technical repair book for my model to assist with the repair? It has also been suggested to me to try to find a Cummings repair mechanic not associated with Dodge if possible in case I get in a bind... ... I will tell you this - repairing aircraft engines is much easier to deal with than all of this!



Ironically I stopped at Walmart afterward where I met a Diesel mechanic on heavy machinery. He also indicated that the computer component could be replaced. His son repairs the diagnostic scanners used to read our codes and so he suggested completely disconnecting the battery from the terminal in order to reset the computer - in case this solves the problem. In his experience this works if the computer is not toast.



So right now I myself feel like toast. :{ I have disconnected the battery from all terminals and am going to let it go till tomorrow when I hope to review any advice posted..... which I badly need.

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

DLineberry's,

Yes, the computer atop the VP44 can be replaced alone but in so doing it has to be calibrated to the injection pump which means a run on the test stand for 4 hours. I don't know of a shop that will do this because if internal parts of the pump show up bad during the test the pump has to be rebuilt and run on the test stand another 4 hours for calibration.

Secondly, the 0216 code is for the timing piston inside the VP44, not the computer on top. This code means the VP44 is dying and needs to be replaced because it will simply quit at some point. How long? One never knows until it happens.

Disconnecting the battery will not help this situation.

Diagnosis: replace the VP44 with a reman unit from a reputable shop, not Dodge ($$$). Again, I recommend and use Scheid Diesel. If you are an airplane mechanic you can easily replace the VP44. Do a search here on TDR for VP44 replacement instructions as there are some good step by step intructions posted. The three special tools I have are the barring tool for turning the engine over (nice but not necessary), a special injection pump gear puller (necessary) and a short 19mm for the rear injector lines (necessary). Go for it and plan on 4 or 5 hours the first time.

Before you replace the VP44 order a tapped banjo bolt from Geno's Garage and install it at the fuel inlet of the VP44 and read your fuel pressure from there. I do not like to tap into the Schrader valve as it has given false readings for me.

Godspeed,
Trent

 

[EDankievitch]

First thing I would do is pick up the Dodge shop manuals There are a few for this truck and most Dealers don't have the book on the injection system. I went through this with my 02 and a dealer bad experince. 4 vp44 pumps later and I tossed in the towel, Almost killed the service manager in the process. There are a few things hat controll the vp44 crank, cam, and internal position sensors. If they are not all lined up or if one is failing the pump will go into a "Limp mode" to get you home and the truck will run like an old Detroit with a sticky rack and smoke. Also there are Mass air flow sensors that monitor boost pressure (the turbo and waist gate) If this fails you will get a dead throttle and lots of smoke. Take the time to learn the system with the manual, don't just start replacing parts like the dealer did to me. I lost a great truck over the anger I had, not that the 05 they replaced it with is a bad truck but I liked the 02 better. GET THE BOOKS! Ginos I think has the full set. Best of luck.

 

[BoeingDiesel]

If you're interested in replacing the IP yourself go to this link. Dan MacDonald goes thru every step and will save you $400. 00-600. 00 for the install. Goodluck and don't forget the cam position sensor.



VP-44 Replace - Diesel Truck Resource - Wiki



99' 2500 SLT QC 2WD AT Airdog 100 Isspro Gauges DTT Filter PDR HX35TC 268k miles

2006' H. O. 6spd. 3500 QC 4x4 SLT.

 

[DLineberrys]

Considering the special tools required as noted by blacksheepdiesel, does anyone have confidence that this can be done IN A CAMPGROUND, IN THE GRASS????? instead of a garage? Yes I have done aircraft engine repairs on a ramp without a hanger. General Aviation engines are like our good old fashioned engines where you can look under the hood and recognize what your dealing with - not a bunch of computer wires going this way and that. (By the way, Hi - although my husband is the aircraft mechanic, I am his right hand gal of 20 years... . I write this all up and will end up assisting in the repairs - FUN, FUN, FUN!)

 

[Mishkaya]

Considering the special tools required as noted by blacksheepdiesel, does anyone have confidence that this can be done IN A CAMPGROUND, IN THE GRASS????? instead of a garage? Yes I have done aircraft engine repairs on a ramp without a hanger. General Aviation engines are like our good old fashioned engines where you can look under the hood and recognize what your dealing with - not a bunch of computer wires going this way and that. I am not sure what you meant by a special tool to "turn the engine". It this means the cylinders, OK, but it this means physically turning the engine in order to work on it - I just can't do that here.

Yes, provided you have the tools listed by blacksheepdiesel, you can definitely do it yourself in the campground. The barring tool is to be able to rotate the engine to make sure the keyway on the pump is facing upward (all in the instructions), but you do not need the barring tool to do this as there are other ways (also in the instructions). I would go to Walmart and purchase a cheap bed sheet to put under the truck just to make sure if any parts do fall, you can still find them.
Good luck.
mishkaya

 

[BoeingDiesel]

DlineB... being an A&P certainly qualifies you to do this job whether in the grass or on the ramp. The FAA says your good enough to issue you a license for airframe and power plant so go for it. You're no stranger to wrench twisting and this job does not require a sign off. Heck, if I wasn't on the roster I'd jump seat to your locale and give you a hand. If you haven't watched the Diesel Dan video link I posted earlier, do so, you'll see what I mean.

 

[DLineberrys]

Great. Yea we are a bit overwhelmed, but your guys believe in us - We are going to eat breakfast now finally at noon after studying all your replies and start in on the videos and info. We couldn't do all of this without you! We will report back.

 

[blacksheepdiesel]

Daniel and Toni,

GO FOR IT! Especially with a "right hand woman!" What a deal!

I installed the 2nd reman VP44 in my truck just recently but I had carried the reman in the truck in case the VP on the engine went dead while on the road. I had all my tools and would have changed it on the road without even thinking about it twice.

Good idea on the sheet but you might want to move it while removing the injection lines to keep it from getting soaked with diesel.

Let us know how it goes.

If you want a phone # to call in case you hit any snags (which I doubt) PM me.

Godspeed,
Trent

P. S. A small inspection mirror is helpful for seeing where the gear key is oriented and a pickup magnet is helpful for NOT dropping the injection gear washer and nut into the gear case.