WHY can my buddie's Ford eat my Dodge's lunch?

[Bart]

We just came back from Utah. During the trip both ways when we hit hills he'd pull away from me like I turned the key off. Here is the scenrio, He's driving an '06 F350 6. litre, auto (6 speed auto???), 4. 30 gears and stock tires. He has put one of those engine power boosters on and doesn't have (or care about) exhaust temps (gauge). As we start to pull the hill my exhaust that is already up around 1100-1200 goes to 1300 and that's when I start to defuel in an attempt to keep the exhaust no hotter than the 1300 degrees. Eventually, I end up droping out of overdrive and when the hill is steep enough going into second at a speed of around 35-40 mph.

So what's the deal? Is it that I could keep my foot in it and keep up with him (at the cost of my engine) or is his newer rig just that much better?

I have upgraded my turbo, exhaust system, injectors, timing, afc spring and plate. I plan on that ATS intake elbow in an attempt to lower exhaust temps. I also plan on head work to lower temp more. What else can I do? Live with it or buy a new rig. Wife would s***!!!!! Besides I've put so much into it now and it's paid for!!

 

[JThiessen]

I'm going to venture that a lot of it may have to do with driving style. Maybe start by NOT towing in OD - even on flat ground. Get your RPM's up higher before you start lugging it. Sounds to me like you are loosing momentum, and nothing will overcome that very well.

I'm also guessing that your not pulling super heavy trailers, and that both of you are almost equal in trailer weight ('course, if you knew the actual weights, thta may be the answer right there)



His 4. 30:1 gear ratio will also help him stay in the safe power band, of which he really has plenty. That motor he has probably has more HP than you do. I'm suprised that you dont also have a box, given how much other work you've done to yours. You've got it prepped almost perfectly to take advantage of a programmer or a power box.

 

[CRuth]

Maybe what he was towing was a lot lighter than yours?

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

JT - he has a 12v which means he has a mechanical pump (P7100) - no boxes. You said your EGT's were already at 1100-1200 - I'm assuming you mean on level ground? That's awfully high for level ground, what are you towing? When I'm towing my 35' TT (8,500 lbs) on level ground at 75 mph I run right around 850 degrees (pre turbo).

 

[BTighe]

what rpm are you at when you start the hill?

1100* sounds hot for flat ground. what have you done to your intake?

dont the new fords rev to like 4200rpm.

 

[Bob4x4]

Make sure you have 0 boost leaks,and change your fuel plate to one that will defuel at higher rpm and allow you to run the rpm on the grades.



Bob

 

[Bart]

My rig, dresses out at 19,000 pounds. That's the truck, 11' camper, steel car trailer and 1966 Bronco (on the trailer). With the change to 4. 10s my gvw is right at 19K#. If I started at the bottom of the hills not in o. d. my max speed would be no more than 52. 5 mph. I feel that would be worse than in o. d.

Currently, I only have the turbo upgraded (Switzer 62/14), 370 injectors, and timing changed to 15. 3*. I'm looking at going with the ATS intake conversion in hopes of lowering the temps another 100 degrees or so.

I do believe that the new Ford can rev in the 4-5K range as that's what his tack has without any red line.

My exhaust probe is also pre-turbo. I moved it after finding out that I was only fooling myself.

Before the hill and at 65-70 mph I'm up around 2300+ rpms. Out of o. d. I'm closer to 2500 at 50-52 mph. With the 235 tires my speedo is off 2. 5 mph (gps corrected). That's why I'm posting the 50-52 and 65-70 ranges.

I don't know what buddie's trailer weighs in at but it's a long legged toy hauler with an International Scout (aka Tank) loaded inside. His off roader out weighs my Bronco by a good 500 pounds. I don't know if the toy hauler weighs as much as my 2500 pound camper and 1,000 pound car trailer. Since it's a good 34-35 footer I'd guess it to be at least equal or greater than my loaded weight.

I went to 4" exhaust with a less restrictive muffler where his is still a stock 3".

I hope that this helps to fine tune the decussion some. Thanks for the feed back.

Edited: I just talked to buddy and his rig dresses out around 24,000 pounds which is his gvw because of the 4. 30 gears he has.

 

[Bart]

Make sure you have 0 boost leaks,and change your fuel plate to one that will defuel at higher rpm and allow you to run the rpm on the grades.



Bob

Forgive me but I don't understand the part aroub fpp that will "defuel" at higher rpms and allow you to run the rpm on grades. The only thing I can think of that "may" help would be to turn the star wheel down some. That'll make the turbo pump more air before the fuel comes in and therefore less exhaust heat. But it "may also" cut the top end fuel also.

 

[Hendricks]

sounds to me like your buddy is willing to toast his motor, and you are not

 

[Bart]

Hendricks, that was my only conclusion. He has a new truck under warranty and I don't. I don't know if they'll warranty a fried motor "IF" they find out he has one of those programmable things in it. He can bump the power up and down and the fact that he doesn't have an exhaust gauge makes me wonder if that's the case. His last truck was a 2500 Dodge that he had added extra balls to and Dodge voided his warranty when they found out what he'd done. Now, he has it to where he can power it back before it has to go into the dealer.

In years gone by, I had my exhaust probe behind the turbo to prevent a burnt tip from taking out the turbo. Since then, I've learned that no one has ever accurally seen that happen. I moved the probe and the temps are much higher. I can only imagine what I was doing before.

I do plan on replacing the head gasket "before" it burns out and at the same time have some extensive porting done to allow it to breathe better. Then the only thing left is the bigger and better intercooler.

Does it ever end????????????:{

 

[TFucili]

It may not resolve your performance question, but don't overlook the fact that your truck is eight years older than his. Let's see how his Navijunk runs eight years from now. I'll guarantee it has been melted down to make cast iron sewer pipe... the destiny of all things Intrashnational.



I would guess some well planned pump and turbo work would close that gap quite a bit.



Either way, you'll have the last laugh.

 

[tgordon]

HP is directly proportional to tourque and RPM. If he can rev his engine up 1-2K higher than you alon gwith having a taller gear even with the same engine as yours he would still walk away from you. At what MPH are you dropping out of OD? If you allow the engine to rev up higher than 2500 with the extra air flow and lower load on the engine that will lower your egt's and get you more power for a long grade. I don't have near the mods you do, or the gauges, but when I hit hills towing toys (2 jeeps on a gooseneck) I only lug down enough to downsihift to 4th with out over reving the engine, but still have plenty of power because the engine is revving so much higher. Then again I am no mechanic and maybe I shouldn't be doing that:-laf



Troy

 

[fest3er]

You situation sounds odd. Only thing I can suggest is take a few sheets of blank paper, forget everything you 'know' about the truck/engine, and go through it piece by piece, verifying either that each thing is as you think, or that it needs adjusting.

There are a number of little things that could add up to problems. I don't see a GSK listed. A 3K GSK will prevent defueling until closer to 3000 RPM; it would let you run higher RPM in a lower gear. Are the trailer tires radials at max pressure? (Bias-ply tires have much more rolling resistance. ) Are the truck's tires suitably aired up? If the pressure is low or they have high rolling resistance, power to the ground will suffer.

If I recall correctly, 370s aren't necessarily the best injector for the application. However, if they've been working well for you until recently, they won't be the problem; I'd first suspect ULSD and then other forms of wear.

When's the last time you changed your fan clutch? On climbing those grades, do you ever hear it engage? Does your engine temp climb 'dangerously' close to the red line? If the fan never engages and the engine temp climbs too high, you may not have adequate air flowing through your intercooler and radiator.

1100F is far too high for towing on level ground, unless you are driving into a really hefty headwind.

Is the turbo running inside its 'map'? If outside, it could contribute to high EGT.

When's the last time you had the injectors 'calibrated'? If they aren't popping off at high enough pressure, you may not be getting good atomization, thus less performance and more heat.

Do you have much blow-by? If so, that could be a good indication of power loss. You'd also see increased oil consumption because the crankcase pressure is too high and the oil can't return to the pan; rather, it leaks out.

Are you using a double-shot of cetane/lubricity boost in your fuel? ULSD pert near demands a double dose to get adequate performance out of the fuel. The double dose also ensure you are getting the proper lubricity regardless of the fuel you get. Heading to Vegas, I used full doses of DieselPower! and full doses of Stanadyne at each fillup. Someone gave away the rest of my DP! at the Vegas event, so I used PS on the way home. I got about 14. 1 MPG out and back running 70-75 MPH. But I got incredible mileage going home from IN when I filled up after dropping off the trailer; heading back to VA at 80 MPH, I was on track for 18. 5 MPG or better.

FWIW, driving my '98 12V to and from Vegas recently via I-70 with a dinky 12' box trailer and weighing about 9600#, my wheezy engine (215 injectors, stock turbo, 3K GSK, stock plate full forward) would get up to about 220F and post-turbo EGT would climb to about 1000F climbing the long grades (Eisenhower, Vail, etc. ) at 78-73 MPH in OD, at 20-26 PSI boost. Direct didn't seem to make any difference in EGT or boost, though after the climb, the EGT gauge only slowly returned to normal. Probe is post-turbo because I care more about turbo cooldown than engine EGT (in 9. 5 years driving the truck, I've run 950F-1050F, sustained, only twice maybe).

N

 

[TAbbott]

I'd check the charge air system. High exhaust temps and low power, coupled with poor fuel economy are symptomatic of an air leak between the turbo and the intake ports on the head.

 

[Bob4x4]

Forgive me but I don't understand the part aroub fpp that will "defuel" at higher rpms and allow you to run the rpm on grades. The only thing I can think of that "may" help would be to turn the star wheel down some. That'll make the turbo pump more air before the fuel comes in and therefore less exhaust heat. But it "may also" cut the top end fuel also.

It is the profile of the plate that determines the available fueling at boost at any given rpm. A #10 defuels considerably at higher rpm. The star wheel is pre boost control. Take your rig up the Cajon pass and bring your tools to start adjusting,after pressure testing your charge air system.



Bob

 

[Bob4x4]

HP is directly proportional to tourque and RPM. If he can rev his engine up 1-2K higher than you alon gwith having a taller gear even with the same engine as yours he would still walk away from you. At what MPH are you dropping out of OD? If you allow the engine to rev up higher than 2500 with the extra air flow and lower load on the engine that will lower your egt's and get you more power for a long grade. I don't have near the mods you do, or the gauges, but when I hit hills towing toys (2 jeeps on a gooseneck) I only lug down enough to downsihift to 4th with out over reving the engine, but still have plenty of power because the engine is revving so much higher. Then again I am no mechanic and maybe I shouldn't be doing that:-laf



Troy

The 12 valve head does not flow enough at high rpm in my opinion to do what you are suggesting. Above 2500 a stock head will not flow enough to support high horsepower under a heavy load,the road speed going up will increase the load on the engine not decrease.



Bob

 

[Bart]

HP is directly proportional to tourque and RPM. If he can rev his engine up 1-2K higher than you alon gwith having a taller gear even with the same engine as yours he would still walk away from you. At what MPH are you dropping out of OD? If you allow the engine to rev up higher than 2500 with the extra air flow and lower load on the engine that will lower your egt's and get you more power for a long grade. I don't have near the mods you do, or the gauges, but when I hit hills towing toys (2 jeeps on a gooseneck) I only lug down enough to downsihift to 4th with out over reving the engine, but still have plenty of power because the engine is revving so much higher. Then again I am no mechanic and maybe I shouldn't be doing that:-laf



Troy

I drop out of o. d. at 52mph. If I were to try for 2500 r's I'd be running close to 85 in od, I can't get to 2500 in drive without excessive EGTs. If you don't have an EGT gauge, how do you know that you're not sky high in your exhaust temp? I too have plenty of power in reserve but EGTs prevent me from using it. It's my problem. Higher reving a diesel is preferable to lugging it. Exhaust temps climb inproportion to the throttle pressure/lower road speed/and tach.

 

[Bart]

You situation sounds odd. Only thing I can suggest is take a few sheets of blank paper, forget everything you 'know' about the truck/engine, and go through it piece by piece, verifying either that each thing is as you think, or that it needs adjusting.



There are a number of little things that could add up to problems. I don't see a GSK listed. A 3K GSK will prevent defueling until closer to 3000 RPM; it would let you run higher RPM in a lower gear. Are the trailer tires radials at max pressure? (Bias-ply tires have much more rolling resistance. ) Are the truck's tires suitably aired up? If the pressure is low or they have high rolling resistance, power to the ground will suffer.



If I recall correctly, 370s aren't necessarily the best injector for the application. However, if they've been working well for you until recently, they won't be the problem; I'd first suspect ULSD and then other forms of wear.



When's the last time you changed your fan clutch? On climbing those grades, do you ever hear it engage? Does your engine temp climb 'dangerously' close to the red line? If the fan never engages and the engine temp climbs too high, you may not have adequate air flowing through your intercooler and radiator.



1100F is far too high for towing on level ground, unless you are driving into a really hefty headwind.



Is the turbo running inside its 'map'? If outside, it could contribute to high EGT.



When's the last time you had the injectors 'calibrated'? If they aren't popping off at high enough pressure, you may not be getting good atomization, thus less performance and more heat.



Do you have much blow-by? If so, that could be a good indication of power loss. You'd also see increased oil consumption because the crankcase pressure is too high and the oil can't return to the pan; rather, it leaks out.



Are you using a double-shot of cetane/lubricity boost in your fuel? ULSD pert near demands a double dose to get adequate performance out of the fuel. The double dose also ensure you are getting the proper lubricity regardless of the fuel you get. Heading to Vegas, I used full doses of DieselPower! and full doses of Stanadyne at each fillup. Someone gave away the rest of my DP! at the Vegas event, so I used PS on the way home. I got about 14. 1 MPG out and back running 70-75 MPH. But I got incredible mileage going home from IN when I filled up after dropping off the trailer; heading back to VA at 80 MPH, I was on track for 18. 5 MPG or better.



FWIW, driving my '98 12V to and from Vegas recently via I-70 with a dinky 12' box trailer and weighing about 9600#, my wheezy engine (215 injectors, stock turbo, 3K GSK, stock plate full forward) would get up to about 220F and post-turbo EGT would climb to about 1000F climbing the long grades (Eisenhower, Vail, etc. ) at 78-73 MPH in OD, at 20-26 PSI boost. Direct didn't seem to make any difference in EGT or boost, though after the climb, the EGT gauge only slowly returned to normal. Probe is post-turbo because I care more about turbo cooldown than engine EGT (in 9. 5 years driving the truck, I've run 950F-1050F, sustained, only twice maybe).



N

Let see if I can answer all this. I don't have the GSK, I do have the #60 exhaust springs to keep from floating the valves during exhaust braking.

My fan clutch locks up at about the center line of the gauge which is just below 180*. I've never changed the fan clutch as it seems to be working fine. During the long hard pulls on I-70 in Utah and I-15 north of Vegas I can bring my temp gauge up to the top of normal, not the red line. It stays there and of course I turn off the a/c (much to the dismay of the wife).

I don't understand what a turbo Map is. The 370 injectors were installed about 10 months ago by Joe Donnelly and he also reset the timing to 15. 3*.

I have no oil comsumption at all. According to what I've learned a post turbo probe can be 300-400* off from a pre turbo reading. So, your reading could be similar to mine. As the top (red line) of the factory temp gauge is 230* I'm guessing I'm running somewhat cooler than your rig with more weight. I only guessing here. No offense ment.

I don't think that the mpg is a problem. Ford Friend (FF) and I were refueling the same amount at almost every fill up.

I moved my probe from post turbo to pre because I'm more concerned about melting aluminum pistions than steel turbo vains. My gauge shows an immediate drop in temps as soon as I back off the throttle. When I'm in this situation, I drive ONLY by the the egt guage. That becomes my complete instrument panel until the terrain changes and the exhaust temps drop of. The engine coolant temp gauge dictates if the wife gets a/c or not. Last year when I have bug screens on the front I actually turned the heater on to rid the coolant of more heat. This year the screens stayed home and coolant temps were not a problem. Thanks for all your information and thoughts.

 

[Bart]

I'd check the charge air system. High exhaust temps and low power, coupled with poor fuel economy are symptomatic of an air leak between the turbo and the intake ports on the head.

Thanks for the thoughts Tabbott, my problem is not low power, I got lots of that, I just can't use it because of the egts. But I'll check for loose hoses anyway. Good thought. I don't understand "intake ports" do you mention where the injectors are or intake valves? Thanks again

 

[Bart]

It is the profile of the plate that determines the available fueling at boost at any given rpm. A #10 defuels considerably at higher rpm. The star wheel is pre boost control. Take your rig up the Cajon pass and bring your tools to start adjusting,after pressure testing your charge air system.



Bob

Bob, currently my #6 fpp is at mid way forward/back and the start wheel is just 10 clicks from all the way forward. I was able to do this only after I replaced the spring in the AFC with a stiffer one. In reference to Cajon, what are you telling me to do? Drive up Cajon and move the fpp forward or backwards? What will this do for me? I don't guess moving the star wheel would have any effect after the low end is passed; correct?