WHY can my buddie's Ford eat my Dodge's lunch?

[Forrest Nearing]

My Switzer turbo 62/14 doesn't "come on" until around the 2K mark. Most of the time if I end up in lower gears and it climbs to around 2300-2500 rpms and I up shift the thing falls in the toilet and egts skyrocket. I'd like to go the twin turbo for the best of both worlds but I already have both of them around the house and can't see why I should buy two more. Doesn't anyone sell the means to bolt them both up? I need to look into this more. I looked at the gsk at one of the TDR sponsors and at $125 that's not a bad deal if it helps. Someone already said that I already have the valve springs. I only have the 60# exhaust springs for the exhaust brake. Do I need to also install intake springs?

this is a perfect example here...



a 3K kit will work great for you. you don't need valvesprings unless you want to rev above 3400rpm or so. If you can keep an eye on the tach (not difficult, 3400 is up there... I did it for years) the 4K will fuel harder even on the bottom end and it'll allow you to rev over 3000...



*I* would go with a 4k kit, but you will LOVE a 3k... it'll allow you to wind out the shifts a little higher and when you come back in the next gear, the turbo will be lit up and the EGT's won't get a chance to climb so much

 

[Bart]

this is a perfect example here...



a 3K kit will work great for you. you don't need valvesprings unless you want to rev above 3400rpm or so. If you can keep an eye on the tach (not difficult, 3400 is up there... I did it for years) the 4K will fuel harder even on the bottom end and it'll allow you to rev over 3000...



*I* would go with a 4k kit, but you will LOVE a 3k... it'll allow you to wind out the shifts a little higher and when you come back in the next gear, the turbo will be lit up and the EGT's won't get a chance to climb so much

Thanks for the infor Forrest. I believe a gsk is in my future. Is there a down side to the 4K gsk?

Is there a point where I start thinking the head gasket is gonna fry? Is egts the main problem of loosing the head gasket? I don't have an "o" ring setup (yet) but when the hg gets replaced there'll be some serious head work done. I plan on keeping this 12v'r, I lucked out in getting it and don't think I want to part with it. I would dearly love to skunk my buddies Ford and still be safe in doin so

Forrest, I see that you have two Dodges. I've been thinking about putting a 6 speeder in place of my ATS automatic. Primarily for the extra o. d. Since your new rig has a 6'r do you think it'd be worth the effort to change it over. As a rule I tow at the top of my GVWR of 19,000.

 

[DCreed]

the g56 doesnt fit under the stock floor of the older body ,but it can be done...

 

[JThiessen]

"J" The gauge/probe were a set and I got them new from Geno's. No I've never changed them out. I called Geno's to do just that and the tech said that they either work or they don't. I thought that was odd that a gauge couldn't be off, knowing that the probe is in the worst possiblem environment. What are you thinking? That I should replace the gauge and the probe as a set?

No I wasnt implying that you actually should get them replaced. I was just asking the question to make sure it had been looked at. A buddy of mine replaced his probe after one of the wires broke (rat,squirrel, or 'coon chewed thru it). It turns out he had the wrong brand of probe, and it fed the guage data that threw his readings off (his were considerably low). The 900 degrees means that either you are loading up your motor too much, or the guage is wrong. Do you have a local TDR chapter where someone could loan you a guage set to either prove or disprove that your readings are correct.



On another tangent, would a gearing change help this scenario? Keep the rpms up higher to keep the EGT's down? I dont recall from reading thru the pages if you have a boost elbow/boost fooler or not? That may help as well (but then I'm not all that familar with the older models).

 

[Willys]

No this is NO a stupid question. I have a stock air filter/box. I "had" a BHAF on when Joe Donnelly installed the 370 injectors and changed the timing to 15. 3*. He said that the stock box was fine up to about 500 h. p. He also said that the super heated air under the hood wasn't good for egts. I saw one guy's answer to this. he punched a 4" hole in the bottom of the filter box and ran 4" abs plastic pipe out the front for more cooler air. I thought this was a good idea but haven't done it yet. Kinda looking around to see what else is available.

Interesting. I've never heard the 500 hp number before. I'm not one to question what Joe knows.



So, second stupid question. Is the stock filter clean? May have to put a fresh one on before you make your next trip up the mountain. :-laf

 

[Bart]

No I wasnt implying that you actually should get them replaced. I was just asking the question to make sure it had been looked at. A buddy of mine replaced his probe after one of the wires broke (rat,squirrel, or 'coon chewed thru it). It turns out he had the wrong brand of probe, and it fed the guage data that threw his readings off (his were considerably low). The 900 degrees means that either you are loading up your motor too much, or the guage is wrong. Do you have a local TDR chapter where someone could loan you a guage set to either prove or disprove that your readings are correct.



On another tangent, would a gearing change help this scenario? Keep the rpms up higher to keep the EGT's down? I dont recall from reading thru the pages if you have a boost elbow/boost fooler or not? That may help as well (but then I'm not all that familar with the older models).

A year or so ago, I did a gear change with a guy out of New Mexico. I traded him my 3. 54s for his 4. 10s. I'm not completely sure that was a good move. My 3. 54s I could take out of o. d. and still run 60, now out of o. d. I'm barely able to make 50. The only thing I can say is that before I had the egt probe in the post possition and now it's in the pre turbo slot. I truely feel that I was fooling myself into thinking that the temps were better in the post turbo hole. I can't say that the reading were better before, I just felt better (ignorance is bliss:-laf). I'm not sure if there is a local TDR chapter or not around here. The gauge set up are not so expensive that I couldn't buy another one. My off road Bronco would love to have one too, but that could be another ig/is/bliss too. Maybe I don't want to know the exhaust temp when Bronk is standing straight up or crawling over a rock bigger than it is. Oo.

What do you mean by "loading up motor"? I try never to lug the CTD. I'd rather it spin faster at lower speed. Is that what you mean?

My Ford friend does have 4. 30 gears and that helps him spin faster and may help keep his egts down also.

Thanks for the thoughts and I do appreciate ALL the information that has been passed out.

 

[Bart]

Interesting. I've never heard the 500 hp number before. I'm not one to question what Joe knows.



So, second stupid question. Is the stock filter clean? May have to put a fresh one on before you make your next trip up the mountain. :-laf

On the chance that my air stream was restricted, I pulled the K&N filter last night and cleaned it. It did have some dirt (looked like an oily mud) caked on about 1/4 of the surface. I cleaned it twice and left it to dry. Tonight, I'll reoil it and check that out. All the intake clamps were tight.

Although Cummins doesn't recommend using the freer breathing K&N type filters, I pulled my paper filter and reinstalled the K&N to see if that'd be better. Is the AFE Stage 7 filter a better set up than the k&n or are they about the same?

 

[BHuebner]

Hey Bart. from my experience with the K&N air filter, i would round file it and run the paper element until you get an AFE or figure out your intake situation. as for intercoolers ive heard runnin the 24v ic will drop your temps 100-150 for a lot less than the custom built units. that and an intake horn should help out a bunch. i would think having those 370's isnt the best for towing either

 

[JTEdieselram]

I did not read all the replies, but I think it is the same reason I get beat on the street, but kill at the track. The older 12v motors are dogs without boost. The ford has a varaiable geometry turbo that practically makes full boost as soon as you touch the gas, therefore they are alot more responsive. My truck has large twins and goes like H_LL, but is slow taking off unless I boost her up 1st BTW, 12-1300 is not hot, don't get above 1500 for too long, you can actually see 2000 (at the exhaust port) for 20 seconds or so without problems, the pistons are oil cooled, and ride in a watter cooled cylinder, they stay cool. Call and talk to Van Haisley LOL, he'll set you straight on any 12v question you could possibly ever have!

 

[Bart]

Hey Bart. from my experience with the K&N air filter, i would round file it and run the paper element until you get an AFE or figure out your intake situation. as for intercoolers ive heard runnin the 24v ic will drop your temps 100-150 for a lot less than the custom built units. that and an intake horn should help out a bunch. i would think having those 370's isnt the best for towing either

Hey Brian how's it goin'? I ordered a new air filter system. I hope it gets here soon. I bought a new 39' toy hauler and need the cooling. I did take one TDR member's advise here and took tools out on the freeway. I ended up moving the star wheels from 10 clicks to 30 clicks in several stages. I ended up moving it back to 25 clicks. Lots more turbo action and power. Exhaust is better but still high. What's this about using a 24 v'r intercooler, is it really better than the 12'r? Who has done that change?

 

[Bart]

I did not read all the replies, but I think it is the same reason I get beat on the street, but kill at the track. The older 12v motors are dogs without boost. The ford has a varaiable geometry turbo that practically makes full boost as soon as you touch the gas, therefore they are alot more responsive. My truck has large twins and goes like H_LL, but is slow taking off unless I boost her up 1st BTW, 12-1300 is not hot, don't get above 1500 for too long, you can actually see 2000 (at the exhaust port) for 20 seconds or so without problems, the pistons are oil cooled, and ride in a watter cooled cylinder, they stay cool. Call and talk to Van Haisley LOL, he'll set you straight on any 12v question you could possibly ever have!

Thanks for the info JTE, when towing I regularly see the 1300 range and start backing down above that. I cleaned the K&N air filter and did see some improvement, I also moved the star wheel from the 10 clicks to 25 and saw a (truck only) improvement in excelleration and less exhaust temps. A new air filter system is on the way. I can almost guarantee that there is a head porting and new cam in my future. I don't want a new truck. I want a killer 98 12 valver that will tow my trailers up almost any grade. As my '98 spends most of it's time in a cool shady garage it looks almost new. I just bought a new toy hauler and the people at the lot couldn't believe it was the original paint. Thanks again.

 

[Forrest Nearing]

I would skip the 24v cooler and buy a cooler from PDR... they have a bigger cooler that uses OEM tanks, etc. it's not cheap, but it's not as expensive as Banks, Spearco, etc.



if I was going to take the time/effort to install a new cooler, I'd go that route.



and I'm going to again suggest some water injection and a big resovoir

 

[Bart]

I would skip the 24v cooler and buy a cooler from PDR... they have a bigger cooler that uses OEM tanks, etc. it's not cheap, but it's not as expensive as Banks, Spearco, etc.



if I was going to take the time/effort to install a new cooler, I'd go that route.



and I'm going to again suggest some water injection and a big resovoir

Hey, Forrest, how's it goin'? I took your advise and talked to Wes Snow. He's sending out a new air system to replace the stock system. He and I talked at length about my problem. A water inject system is defiantley in the works. I plan on putting two polly tanks in the bed, one on each side and in front of the wheel wells. I'm still thinking on how I want to plumb it. That should have enough water for a long while. Wes also talked about the blue windshield washer fluid that has methonal in it. Cheaper too. Thanks for the lead.

As for the PDR not cheap, it's cheaper than a new truck! We just bought a new '08 39' toy hauler so more cooling is a requirement even more now.

 

[Bart]

I "think" it's finally licked I took the Dodge over to a place here in Victorville, Ca called "Commerial Engine Service". The service manage took a look at it and in no time told me what my problems were. First there was a bolt missing from the intake manifold plate. Second, the gasket was bad, and third it was loosing it's lift pump. The lift pump will make it run hot because it would temporarily run out of fuel and low fuel makes for high egts. I've already replaced the gasket and that improved things a lot. I have a pony pump that he recommended coming from Idaho. He did this all in about 5 minutes. The truck runs like a scualed cat,now and temps are down. It is still popping due to the lift pump that should be here Monday. If you have any issues with yours I'd recommend talking to him. He had a 12 valve and sure misses it. I'd recommend you looking at the intake area for broken gasket. I was able to take my gasket out without tearing it and it was in two pieces.

 

[Andersonville]

Did you check your antifreeze to make sure it was up to spec? The truck antifreeze/coolant is supposed to be spec'ed to -34. Worn out coolant would cause an overheat condition as would a restricted radiator. Take the radiator out and spray out the fins with a pressure washer. Just my . 02

Good luck and let your buddy burn up his Ferd.

 

[TX Gooseneck]

A lot of the difference is the way the v8 will run vs the I6.



My Ford vs my Dodge, stock, the Ford is considerably quicker, but the Dodge has more balls while towing. The Ford does 'OK', but the mileage is way off. Depending on which program he has, he could be anywhere from 350rwhp/650rwtq, to 450rwhp/750rwtq.



I also wouldn't worry about 1300* temps. I've shot way past 1600* pre turbo, I just don't make a habit out of it, and when I'm towing I keep my egt shutdown at 1575*

 

[Forrest Nearing]

Sean, your 600 will take a lot more steady heat than an old 2nd gen!

 

[TAbbott]

You found a leak in your charge air intake system at the intake manifold ... missing bolt and bad gasket. Sounds a lot like this post from several weeks ago:



"You could have a leak between the intake manifold and the head. When you're looking for a reason for high EGT's for the power you're making, the place to start is the charge air system. "

 

[BHuebner]

third it was loosing it's lift pump. The lift pump will make it run hot because it would temporarily run out of fuel and low fuel makes for high egts

isnt it, the more fuel you add the hotter a diesel runs, not less? lack of air causes heat in our diesels not lack of fuel.

Bart, sorry to hear about you 5th wheel/bed rail accident. ill keep an eye out for a p/u bed!

 

[Bart]

isnt it, the more fuel you add the hotter a diesel runs, not less? lack of air causes heat in our diesels not lack of fuel.

Bart, sorry to hear about you 5th wheel/bed rail accident. ill keep an eye out for a p/u bed!

I was thinking the other way around. What happens when you add excess oxygen to an acetylene torch? You have a super hot cutting torch. I don't know if this is accurate thinking, but... ... ... .

I did find a reasonably priced bed about 400-500 miles away. Here's a post I did on an RV site I'm using.

I found the one I decided on. I found several others, but were sold before I got there. Then, other fine people offered me their's but the distance was too great. Finally, someone came up with a list of beds in various wrecking yards, but the prices were two to three times more than the first one. To put the icing on the cake, this guy from Tahoe, Ca. sent pictures. So, I guess I'm heading up there this weekend with car trailer in hand to bring home the black one. Luckily for me, I have a paint booth and most of the skills to make it red. One other option I have is to cut all the spot welds off and change out just the outter fenders. The reason for this is that I "had" a red rhino liner in the bed of mine oem bed. The cost of replacing that was $1800. This from the "prefered" auto repair co. that my insurance company wanted me to go to. No wonder those butt heads called it a total. Talk about trying to rape an insurance company.

Anyway, thanks to ALL for your support and help.

Does anyone need something hauled up to the central Kalifornia area this weekend?